Interview:
(continues from April 2, 2000 Santa Fe, New Mexico)
In my mind, after trying to understand New Mexico’s history for the past fifty years in relationship to non-human intelligence interacting with earth, it’s not clear if White Sands Proving Ground and Missile Range always had the upper hand on what goes on in New Mexico. Or is a higher pecking order at Los Alamos? Or have decisions about non-human activities been divided among various military and intelligence commands so no one group or person could know everything that was happening?
Actually, I think that the atomic activity was being handled by the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and the activity at White Sands Missile Range, or at the time, White Sands Proving Ground, was the Army. Then you had the Air Force presence guarding with radar capability. Then you had the Navy – they even had a facility here in terms of radar work. And so you’ve got a number of different groups. And if you’re talking about air defense, flying in the air was a responsibility of the Air Force after August of 1947. But shooting things down out of the sky was the responsibility of the Army. That was Army Anti-aircraft Artillery Division (Robert M. Montague, member of MJ-12 and Director of the National Anti-aircraft and Guided Missile School, Ft. Bliss, Texas, 1946-July 1947 and Base Commander, Sandia Base, July 1947 – February 1951.) And so you had a number of different groups all active in the same area. And it’s not inconceivable that each one would have its own capacity to do whatever it needed to do to protect the air space above New Mexico.
In the work you have done to establish why the El Vado Radar installation should be preserved, have you come across any information that would give an insight into the non-human activities in New Mexico?
No, that was not a part of this research activity. What really propelled me to do this is that New Mexico has such a rich history in that 1942 period on in relationship to science and technology. And we have lots and lots of facilities. But somewhere along the line, most of those have been destroyed. AFS-P8 is a facility that was abandoned in 1958 and remains pretty much intact. So the Historic Preservation Division of the State of New Mexico is interested in preserving that site from the standpoint of its role with the Atomic Energy Commission and with Los Alamos and the early Cold War period in the state.
In the process of doing the radar station research, I think you had conversations with Congressman Schiff before he died about his official efforts to get to the bottom of what happened at Roswell.
Right.
One of the most startling revelations in his GOA inquiry resulted from his request for all Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) records from January 1 to December 31, 1947. The reply to him was that all of the records had been destroyed without authorization.
Yes. I know that the folks working around him were pretty stunned that nothing existed in terms of documentation from Roswell or from several other facilities in southern New Mexico.
Did anyone believe those RAAF records had really been destroyed? Isn’t it a shell game and the records are hidden somewhere else?
I have no idea. But I do know that I did talk with one of the GAO (Government Accounting Office) staff people and Jack Anderson did also. He wrote a national column. The researchers that were involved with the GAO, at least one of them felt, something significant had happened in the Roswell area. They didn’t want to speculate on what had happened there, but from the movements of different groups back then it was apparent even in newspaper reports that something significant had happened there.
In the Roswell area in 1947?
Right. In the Corona and Carrizozo and Roswell triangle there.
There is even more information in documents released in the last three years which indicate there was a landing or crash near the Trinity Site at White Sands between Oscura Peak and Socorro.
OK, and then the one thing that really hasn’t been discussed is that airplane accident in Carrizozo where the jet flew into the gas station. The plane blew up and killed a couple of people. Basically that was never reported outside of Carizzozo.
Do you think the Carrizozo incident could have been the military’s way to deflect attention away from some other highly classified activity such as the retrieval of an extraterrestrial craft?
I would have to speculate about having that P-80 jet sitting on that highway over that period of time immediately after the dates of interest that we have with Roswell collection activity. It was immediately after that that there was a level of military activity occurring in that same geographic location and the information related to something as traumatic as a jet flying into a gas station was not reported. You can only draw one conclusion from that and that is the information was suppressed by someone.
The other thing that has not been well reported that really from the Schiff inquiry was that the Commander at White Sands Proving Ground at the time reported several days before the Roswell thing that two folks at the Missile Range had seen two flying discs about to crash.
What would there be about the behavior of two discs that anyone watching would know they were about to crash?
That’s also a good question. But it was only a few days after the Washington state flying discs sighting.
You’re talking about the June 24, 1947 Kenneth Arnold Report?
Right. White Sands reports two flying discs about to crash on 27th of June 1947.”
El Paso Times New Mexicans Add To Mystery Reports
“Mysterious ‘falling objects’ reported near Tularosa and Eagle, New Mexico Friday (June 27, 1947) had not been located or identified late Friday night. There were no rockets fired from the White Sands Proving Ground Friday.
There was much conjecture as to whether the falling objects had any relation to the mysterious flying discs which had been variously reported seen recently from Oregon to Oklahoma.
Lt. Col. Harold R. Turner, commanding officer at White Sands, said that he had received reports that a track walker said he had seen a falling object near Eagle, New Mexico and an Army captain flying his own plane reported seeing an object falling from the skies near Tularosa. Search parties were sent out from White Sands in attempts to locate the objects or secure additional information.”
What you’re saying is that down at white Sands within a week of the Kenneth Arnold sightings and report, two people at White Sands reported that they watched two discs having some kind of trouble or headed towards a crash?
Yes, the commander of the missile range reported that two of his people had seen two flying discs about to crash. And he was sending out military patrols to find them.
Raising the possibility that there were half a dozen crashes in a very short period of time in New Mexico which would have confused and alarmed the Truman Administration.
I don’t know. The reason that I mentioned June 28th because it’s the only report that I’ve ever seen in the newspaper that says two flying discs were seen about to crash on June 28th. And it was reported by the Lt. Col. in charge of White Sands Proving Ground. And what they would routinely do at the missile range – because they were doing the V-2 rocket experiments and other rocket experiments – if a missile got away from them and headed in a different direction, they would publish the idea that one had gone in a given direction and offer a reward to people who could provide information on the whereabouts of the technology. And so basically, this newspaper article was saying that they saw these two flying discs about ready to crash and they were asking people to look around and see if they could find anything.
Do you think this activity from the end of June into July 1947 from Washington State to New Mexico could have anything to do with microwaves and radar interfering with the aerial craft propulsion, either accidentally or from deliberate U. S. effort?
I think this activity of these anomalous objects were definitely something that interested the military from the standpoint of where they were appearing and that the areas in which they were appearing, especially in southern New Mexico, with the research related activity they had going on down there.
Missiles.
Exactly. And then also with the Atomic Energy Commission – that any anomalous object that flew into this area would have been considered, and not knowing what it is, I think the assumption would have been that they were hostile. And not knowing their source or anything about what these things might represent. And because of our existing air defense capability, I think it would be a natural assumption that we would consider those things to be hostile and do something about it.
Any evidence that you’ve come across either in firsthand testimony or secret documents that confirm a hostile intent on the part of the non-human intelligence/s?
Not that I’ve ever seen. In terms of technology, I can only say that if you do research over that period of time from late June 1947, you’ll find that discs are being seen all over the United States. It was written off as national hysteria in the first week of July 1947. But prior to that, you had military movements of (unidentified) air craft all over the United States and the reports from Washington state and different air defense headquarters were that they were sending airplanes up to find out what these things were. And there were lots and lots of reports in New Mexico during that period of time of anomalous objects in the sky.
My only speculation would be that we had such highly critical facilities here and that we did have people in place to defend the air space above New Mexico and that (unidentified) technology would have been assumed to be hostile whether it was occupied or unoccupied. If it was a remote-controlled, some kind of airplane sent over to photograph installations or whatever – they would have engaged that also.
What about the fact that there were so many civilian and military airplanes crashing out of the sky in that period of 1947 to 1948 that President Harry Truman even called for a change in the way civilian and military aircraft were being serviced and repaired because there were so many accidents?
Absolutely right. During that period of time from about late May through at least the middle of July, we had hundreds of airplane accidents in the United States. And that was of all kinds of aircraft. And the President Truman called a special board, a presidential board, a panel, in early June 1947 to investigate the air crashes. There never was a final report. The offshoot of that was the National Air Traffic Safety Board, the NTSB.
Has it ever been implied to you that all those air accidents might have had a link to the craft and intelligences of unknown origin?
No, but it’s interesting that both of those air-related situations were occurring at the same time and no one associated the idea that they could be associated. And it’s interesting because the flying disc sightings are right next to on the front page of the New York Times next to reports of aircraft accidents.”
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