“UAPs, UFOs — which your listeners are entirely familiar with and
educated on, far more so than this reporter — those two subjects came
up often in my research in everything from declassified documents
that were with CIA and DoD.”
– Annie Jacobsen, author, PHENOMENA © 2017
Reposted August 27, 2023 – June 7, 2017 Albuquerque, New Mexico – On Thursday, June 1, 2017, John Burroughs and I co-hosted a PHENOMENON Radio 2-hour live broadcast on KGRA with investigative national security reporter Annie Jacobsen about her latest book released in May 2017 entitled: PHENOMENA: The Secret History of the U. S. Government’s Investigations into Extrasensory Perception (ESP) and Psychokinesis (PK). In reading the 525-page book — of which 104 pages are end notes and index — I was struck by the persistent presence of two scientific protagonists from 1972 to the present day. Both also helped John Burroughs to survive when his heart was failing in 2012 to 2013.
• 03/13/2015 —Breaking News — This Is Why John Burroughs’s Medical Records from RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge 1979-1982 Are “Classified,” According to Christopher C. Green M.D., Ph.D., FAAFS, Wayne State School of Medicine
Those two scientists who weave through Annie Jacobsen’s remarkable and brilliant history are physicist and electrical engineer Hal Puthoff, Ph.D. and neuroradiologist Christopher “Kit” Green, M. D., who in the 1970s was the CIA’s Chief of Medical Intelligence in the Life Sciences Division. Their respective science and medical knowledge have also been applied to research into the nature of unidentified aerial phenomena and alien intelligences.
June 1, 2017, PHENOMENON Radio on dbKGRA
with National Security Reporter Annie Jacobsen
Linda Moulton Howe, Co-Host with John Burroughs of weekly PHENOMENON Radio, dbKGRA: Extrasensory Perception … ESP … instinct … premonition … intuition … gut feeling — those are all words that mean getting information from Something beyond normal human 5 senses. The U. S. military is convinced some people have a 6th sense that saves them and others when a “danger feeling” prevents stepping on a land mine, escaping an ambush, avoiding snipers, or other threats.
In addition to ESP, there is the ability to move matter with the mind. That’s called psychokinesis, or PK.
From 2014 to this year of 2017, the Office of Naval Research has spent nearly $4 million to study ESP premonitions. A program officer, Peter Squire, who works in the ONR’s Expeditionary Maneuver Warfare and Combating Terrorism Department says: “We have to understand what gives rise to this so-called 6th sense.”
The military wants to know if there is a way to strengthen gut feelings through training? But if premonitions are beyond the 5 senses, where? how? what? in the human mind, body and soul receives and transmits information and warnings?
Those questions were also being asked by the U. S. Central Intelligence Agency in 1952, only seven years after the CIA was created in September 1947, when Harry Truman was President.
Now a brilliant, new book released in May 2017 by investigative reporter Annie Jacobsen dives deeply into the title: PHENOMENA: The Secret History of the U. S. Government’s Investigations Into Extrasensory Perception and Psychokinesis.
She begins after WWII ended in 1945. That’s when the United States and the U.S.S.R. began investigating new ways to influence and control human minds and behavior. By the 1950s, neurobiologist Andrija Puharich worked for the U. S. Army’s Chemical Center, which was one of the CIA’s military partners in a TOP SECRET program called MKULTRA.
Where Was the Mysterious
Energy Force Behind ESP?
Sometimes called the CIA’s mind control program, MKULTRA involved hallucinogenic mushrooms to study mental phenomena and telepathy. The more Puharich worked with the Army, CIA and Dept. of Defense to study human minds, he wondered if the mysterious unknown energy force behind ESP existed inside the human nervous system?
But in the early 1970s, some experiments indicated that plants could sense when they were about to be burned. The plants didn’t have human nervous systems, so what was sensing danger and reacting?
Physicist Hal Puthoff Contracted
by CIA to Test Psychics
Also in 1972 at age 35, a physicist and electrical engineer named Hal Puthoff, Ph.D., worked at the Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, California. SRI was then the second largest Defense Dept. research institute in the United States after RAND Corp. Dr. Puthoff wanted to explore why are there any life processes throughout this inorganic universe? By then he was considered an expert in quantum electronics and electron beam-devices such as lasers and he wanted to explore the quantum level of biology and the mysteries of ESP and PK.
That’s how Hal Puthoff came to do contract work for the CIA and other government agencies and to test psychics such as Ingo Swann and Uri Geller.
Each psychic was put in a “Faraday cage” room shielded from electromagnetic field. But Swann and Geller could still access information outside the Faraday cage. That contradicted the 1950s Puharich Theory of ESP that yet-undiscovered receivers and transmitters were in the human nervous system.
Is Extreme Low Frequency the Key to ESP?
Annie Jacobsen also found another ESP experiment from a 1956 Russian test in which baby rabbits were put on a submarine and their mother was kept far away in an onshore laboratory. The goal was to put the submarine down so deeply that all known frequencies would be cut out — except Extreme Low Frequencies. Then one at a time, each baby rabbit was killed. At the precise moment of death, up in the onshore lab, the mother rabbit’s brain produced detectable and recordable reactions. Did that mean the carrier of the ESP information between babies and mother was in the ELF frequency?
Wanting to answer that question, quantum and laser physicist Hal Puthoff teamed up with another laser physicist at SRI — Russell Targ — to work on a 1976 contract from the Naval Electronics Systems Command to investigate “ELF and Mind Control,” as the Navy official in charge said. Puthoff and Targ called it, “Sensing of Remote EM Sources.”
Paralleling Puthoff’s and Targ’s efforts to understand ESP and PK since the early 1970s has been the brain/body work of Dr. Christopher “Kit” Green, M. D., who then ran the CIA’s Life Sciences Division in Langley, Virginia.
After Dr. Green left official employment by the CIA in 1985, he has worked as an active military and intelligence science adviser to the CIA and Department of Defense. Recently in 2016, Dr. Green was asked to join a classified science advisory board for James Clapper, former Director of National Intelligence. Further, Dr. Green also recently served as chairperson of a 19-member National Research Council examining the future of military-intelligence science and brain research over the next twenty years.
After this break, the author of the extraordinary PHENOMENA book — 49-year-old investigative journalist Annie Jacobsen — will join John Burroughs and me to focus on the military and intelligence ESP and PK research of the past half century in which the frequent partnership of quantum physicist Hal Puthoff, Ph.D., and neuro-radiologist Kit Green, M. D., have woven together. One of their joint cases has also been what happened to our PHENOMENON Radio co-host John Burroughs when he was engulfed twice inside the light of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, or UAPs, at RAF Bentwaters-Woodbridge in December 1980.
1st – COMMERCIAL BREAK
Linda Moulton Howe:
Annie Jacobsen, welcome to PHENOMENON Radio in which our subjects are like your book Phenomena. And I want to start out with going to Page 422 of your remarkable and excellent book, repeating the title for listeners who might just be joining us right now. It is: Phenomena: The Secret History of the U. S. Government’s Investigations Into Extrasensory Perception and Psychokinesis. You write on Page 422 about your own internal thought process that began in your mind before you actually produced this book. And you say …
Annie Jacobson: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a real honor to be on the show. And you know, people often ask me why did I write such and such a book. This is my fourth book dealing with national security issues, weapons, and war, and secrets in our post-WWII world. People often want to know how I get my different ideas for the books.
And so I’ve taken to writing that little vignette in my acknowledgements, which is what I believe you’re referring to. And how I came across the idea for Phenomena was to me just an extraordinary experience of driving in my car listening to the radio, listening to National Public Radio. And there was an interview between a very intelligent-sounding British professor of mathematics and the host. And he told this story that I found absolutely remarkable. So the brief version of it goes like this, the professor tells the story: It’s the summer of 1972, and the actor Anthony Hopkins is in London going about to different bookstores in search of a novel, a rare, obscure Russian novel called The Girl from Petrovka, written by the author named George Feifer. And Hopkins is looking for this book because he’s going to star in a film about the book, and he wanted to read it for research puproses.
Well, he goes to numerous bookstores in various parts of London and no one has the book. And he goes home empty-handed by the other subway, the Underground. And he’s standing there on the subway, and he sees a book, a discarded book lying on a bench. And he walks over, and he picks it up, and lo and behold, it is a copy of The Girl from Petrovka, the very book he’d been trying to buy without success all day. And he sat down, and he began leafing through this book as the subway took him home. And what was remarkable, he later said, was in the margins of the book, someone had written notes, little annotations about the text. So months pass, he’s on the set filming, and George Feifer, the author of the novel which the film is based on, shows up on set. Anthony Hopkins takes a moment to tell him this remarkable story. George Feifer says, “Well, do you happen to have a copy of that book with you?”
He says, “I do. Have a look at it.” Well, as it turns out, George Feifer says this was his own copy, and the annotations in the margins were in his own hand. They were little notes that he was writing for the translation of this book into French. And so you have this remarkable story. And at this point, I’m listening to it on the radio. I’ve arrived at my destination, but I just can’t wait to hear what this British mathematics professor has to say about it. He was sort of a very erudite man. He was the former president of the Royal Statistical Society of the UK, and he said he had the answer. And what he said was that it was all mathematics. And that this kind of remarkable thing happens all the time. And I listened to him there argue this case that there was absolutely nothing extraordinary about this story.
And he suggested that anyone who thought it was extraordinary or dared to use a word like “miraculous,” and this is my interpretation of what he was suggesting, but that they were somehow intellectually inferior. And I just found the whole story and the professor’s scientific take on it remarkable. And it made me want to investigate a long-time story that I knew about, which was that the government had done its remote viewing program in the 1970s, and 1980s, and 1990s, and I really wanted to look long and hard into the bigger, really the big framework of the psychic and psychokinesis programs and interest by the CIA and the Defense Department starting at the end of WWII. So, that is what I did with this book.
Linda: John is standing by to talk with you and share his personal experience with UAPs. But I thought before we go to that there is this question that is hanging over your book from beginning to end and is still in my mind. You take us through the various hypotheses that went from the possibility of the human nervous system all the way to Extreme Low Frequencies (ELF) deep in the oceans. And what I’m wondering about is has anyone to date — May to June 2017 — proved or disproved whether ELF or anything else is the receiver/transmitter of ESP and PK in biological life?
Annie: Well, you know, it’s a great question, and it’s a big puzzle and a conundrum. And I would say, No — no one has been able to prove that. That is why this subject matter is so polemic, so divisive. The scientists have their take, the supernaturalists, if you will, have their take. What I found remarkable as a national security reporter was just the breadth and scope of this — of these multiple programs across decades, the dedication of certain individuals to this subject, their dogged research to prove, to see if they could be the one to prove, to finally be able to give that answer that you’re asking. Also there are the battle grounds that were created among the different individuals involved in these programs because it is such an incendiary topic. And it remains in the hypothesis stage if you’re talking about the scientific method.
But what I find so interesting is the actual boots on the ground experiences that I was able to find in declassified documents that really kind of keep you shaking your head and wondering and really wanting to join along in this quest. And I was so intrigued by your introduction of the programs that I was able to report on that I don’t think have been reported on otherwise about the current programs that go on. So we have this here we are again in a new age in this advanced technology era, and yet scientists are determined — and I’m talking military and intelligence community scientists — determined to try and figure out what this idea of intuition, of precognition, what this enhanced sensory ability in some people is.
And Annie, this goes right to Kit Green, M. D., and physicist Hal Puthoff, who I would say are protagonists in your book. It would be those two who have partnered for several decades on various things and played a key role in this survival of John Burroughs, literally, when he was collapsing with a heart problem that was a mystery to his V. A. doctors. And John, I want to turn this over to you for you to explain to Annie what was happening and how behind the scenes that Kit Green and Hal Puthoff ended up helping with new information.
Linda: It would be those two, who have partnered for several decades on various things and played a key role in this survival of John Burroughs, literally, when he was collapsing with a heart problem that was a mystery to his V. A. doctors. And John, I want to turn this over to you for you to explain to Annie what was happening and how behind the scenes that Kit Green and Hal Puthoff ended up helping with new information.
John Burroughs: Annie, before I do that, I’ve got a couple questions as far as you could help the listeners understand. What did you feel from interviewing these guys their goal was as far as I understand they wanted to discover this, but what exactly do they want to do with this? Why is it that important to them?
Annie: And you’re talking about the broad applications research they do, or?
John: Right. You got to meet with them, you got to interview them, you got to talk to them. They opened up to you about what they were working on in their programs. What, as a reporter — and you went in there as an investigative reporter — what were you looking for? And what did they give you? Were you satisfied with what they gave you? And then last but not least, do you feel they held back? And do you think that this is not over yet?
Annie: Well, as a national security reporter, I’m most interested in the personal stories of scientists who work in these military programs and intelligence programs. And so it’s my role to interview them at length. Then I begin to sort of track the story that I want to tell as I learn more and then supplement the information that comes out of our interviews with documents that I’m looking for from the Freedom of Information Act, from secondary sources. So it’s a very broad story, and Linda, you’re absolutely right that these are the protagonists of my book, Phenomena, two of the major protagonists. I mean, their stories interweave in as much as how Puthoff led the original psychic program, also called the remote viewing program, at SRI starting in 1972. And Dr. Christopher “Kit” Green was brought in as the biologist. As Green told me, he ran what was called the “Weird Desk” at CIA. It was his job to track everything anomalous that was going on around the world. And this is how he got brought in.
And so the two of them have this remarkable decades long history of working together. It might be more helpful to the listeners if you asked like specifically maybe in terms of a program or a decade because of course, as I report in the book, they worked together on and off from 1972 until the present day.
Linda: I thought that it would be important to go into some of the details that you shared that are so fascinating about Ingo Swann and Uri Geller — the Faraday cage chapter and we can work our way through. But John, would you like to share with Annie about why those two scientists (Puthoff and Green) have played such an important role in your own life?
John: If you go to your book in the 400-page area, you started exploring and going more into DNA and UAPs. Was that introduced to you by them? Or did you already have a working knowledge and start asking them questions about it?
Annie: Well, what we’re talking about now is a program that takes place at the Nolan Laboratory. It’s run by Garry Nolan, who’s a leading geneticist. And Dr. Nolan’s probably best known for his work in large-scale mapping of human cell features. And as I learned through my reporting, Green is working with Puthoff and with—I’m sorry. I mean, Dr. Garry Nolan is working with Puthoff and Green on a program to look at the genomics of individuals who have anomalous mental phenomena capacities, allegedly, and also individuals who have been injured by UAPs.
So my understanding, John, is that you fall into that category based on what you shared with me about your experience. And so to answer the question — what did I know? I think it’s interesting to consider the reporter’s job. So reporters, like myself, hear lots of things and ask lots of questions. It’s then a process about a source, in this case Puthoff and Green revealing to the reporter — me — what they’re comfortable with, and then part of that process is an ongoing kind of organic process in as much as that then I do further interviews with other individuals who are involved who are willing to talk to me.
And I begin to unpuzzle the situation. And I’m not being coy. I am trying to give the listener a sense of the process of being a reporter, which I happen to think is one of the most interesting jobs in the world. So I think that is how the information comes about. In other words, I don’t think anyone ever really sits down with me and says, “Here’s my story,” because usually I’m right at the edge of stories that people are not necessarily willing to share in entirety. And so it’s my job to help the sources feel comfortable enough to be able to share with me what it is that they are working on knowing that there’s a trust that goes on with a reporter.
In other words, you’re talking about very incendiary subjects here. And you’re also talking about scientists with big labs, big reputations, and big contracts. And I think that there is an ebb and flow with trust and response, if that makes sense.
John: Right. And the reason why I ask you this is simple, OK? Your book was going one way, and you definitely, like Linda said, interwove Puthoff and Green into the book and what they were working on. And then it seems like right towards the end of the book, it took a right turn.
Annie: (Laughs) I think you’re right.
John: Yeah. And you went into the UAP subject.
John: And my question was — were you aware of it? Or did Puthoff and Green bring that up to you? Do you feel that it all plays a factor in your book? I know you put it in there, so I know you must have thought it was important enough, but how does that relate to the rest of your book? And how much importance do you feel there is to it? And then I can go a little bit into what interaction I’ve had with them.
Annie: Yes, yes, of course. So I made a conscious decision to write about extrasensory perception and psychokinesis, also map dousing, things that are anomalous mental phenomena. And were I to bring in issues of UAPs and unidentified flying objects, the book would have been a different book. So, I made a conscious decision — hence the title of Phenomena — to stick with the former, not the latter.
Now, UAPs, UFOs, etc. — which your listeners are entirely familiar with and educated on, far more so than this reporter — those two subjects came up often in my research in everything from declassified documents that were with CIA and DOD. What I found peculiar and interesting — and this is not reported in my book, and is part of the reason I did not report it in the book — but for listeners, I’ll give the short version. I noticed that the CIA had one way of dealing with its psychics — Ingo Swann and Pat Price in particular — talking about UFOs and UAPs. They were both real believers. And they would write up these reports — and these again are now declassified. I got a thousand pages of documents declassified from the CIA through the FOIA. [Freedom of Information Act]
And what I found interesting and also interviewed at length Puthoff and Jacques Vallee and Kit Green about this, is there seemed to be what I would call an Ivy League gentleman’s attitude toward UFOs at CIA. In other words, they were perfectly fine letting Ingo and Pat write about UFOs, talk about UFOs, believe in UFOs, but the kind of subtle Ivy League version of it was, “Just don’t make too big of a deal of it. Just sort of keep it to yourself, as if it’s a hobby or a pastime, OK?”
Now, at DOD, it became an entirely different animal. UFOs, UAPs, were what ended up being called “fantasy targets.” And it became a problem, and it ultimately, in my interpretation, led to the downfall of the Defense Department program.
And so I do write about UFOs and UAPs in that context. Again, the reporter reporting on the documents, trying to withhold judgment about all of this. So I felt that I had a responsibility to report that to readers. And then the issue of the current work that Puthoff and Green are doing, specifically at the Nolan Lab. Now, John, specifically with individuals like you who of course I did not know about until you shared that with me because Puthoff and Greenn don’t share any kind of specifics about patient information. I put that in the book because I personally found it remarkable. And as I asked Green and Puthoff, and I write about in the book, what’s the link between anomalous mental phenomena and UAPs, UFOs, because previously, as I just kind of gave you the long spiel, it had always been a sidebar issue.
And what Green and Nolan made clear to me that was really astonishing to me was that they are searching for the genomics of individuals who seem to attract these phenomena. From a scientific standpoint — because you’re talking about the Nolan Lab being a major laboratory at Stanford University with big NIH and DOD grants — I found that, as a reporter, very interesting to report on.
Linda: And Annie, may I insert just for a moment your own quote in interview with Dr. Nolan?
He said to you, “I have met and worked with many of Kit Green’s patients, and I have looked deeply at the relevant medical data. These people were injured. I have seen the physiological consequences of the harm they’ve endured.”
He agrees with Kit Green that in many cases it looks as if it is an electromagnetic field of some sort.
Continuing now with Dr. Nolan: “It has led to inflammation and other biomarkers in their bodies that can be seen in M.R.I.s, tissues, blood. We are now working on both the genetic and epigenetic components,” Dr. Nolan says. “I am relatively certain we are the only individuals in the field doing this.” You write that using mapping technology that the Nolan Lab is renowned for, technicians are mapping Green’s patients’ DNA and their immune systems. They are looking for patterns among the patients using biological data to create an integrated theory.
Then this is Dr. Nolan: “All kinds of trauma can be picked up by the immune system. Ever event that happens to you is recorded by your immune system, which in turn creates a biological database. Every surgery or bee sting,” Dr. Nolan says. “Every incident of H1N1, flu, head cold, allergy or chicken pox — it all is sensed and recorded by the immune system.” Then you explain that with the technology that is emerging from the Nolan Lab, doctors will likely soon be able to take a snapshot of a person’s blood and read the historical record of that person’s physiological life.
That’s from your incredible book. And I’m turning it back to you because I felt this is one of the most important pieces in your book.
Annie: “I couldn’t agree with you more, Linda. I wrote the 425-page book, and I have to say, these few pages around where you read, are the ones that are among the most remarkable to me for two reasons. One, this is currency right here. I mean, this is happening here and now. And that is remarkable. And having been someone whose last book was on DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize, and having learned about the extraordinary advances in technology the Defense Department is making, when you consider what we are able to do with bio-nano technology in a military and intelligence community environment, and you look at a program like you just described, coming straight out of the doctor’s mouth, Dr. Garry Nolan, this to me is big news.
And I’m surprised that it’s kind of slipped under the radar. I’m glad you’ve brought it up, and I think people perhaps are not really quite ready to confront this kind of thing. Let’s back up for a second. Consider this, from prehistory to the modern era, superstition and magic have influenced national security the way that science does now. So imagine if science is able to give us the answer that has always been relegated to superstition and magic. What if science is able to tell us something else? And that is what I think you’ve hit upon, you know, being excited about in reading these few pages. And that is certainly what was exciting for me to report on these pages.
Linda: And Annie, it ties directly to the now somewhat famous, at least through the reporting that John and I have been doing on PHENOMENON Radio for the past two years, that the U. K. Eyes Only DI-55 Science and Technical report on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs) that was handed over to the MoD Director in 2000 without any of us knowing anything about it. Then the report was very quietly under the radar unclassified in 2006. And nobody, including Nick Pope in England, who had worked at the MoD, knew that it had been unclassified.
Then it was in the 2012-2013 time period when John Burroughs became extremely ill with a mysterious heart failing and in that period both Kit Green and Hal Puthoff, Nick Pope and some others — we ended up getting at first pieces of that original 460-page highly classified U. K. report about UAP frequency emissions that we were then told were defined as terahertz frequencies emitted from Unidentified Aerial Phenomena.
And in the 460-page report, in Appendix F as in Frank, very difficult to find even in the U. K. National Archives — but it is there and I made it really clear at Earthfiles.com so people could read it themselves. It says under a subtitle, “Mental Effects” inside the DI-55 report. And then it continues about the “Rendlesham Incident” and it’s talking about the frequencies emitted by Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and says those frequencies can manipulate human minds and damage human tissues.
That is directly linked to the sentences to you from Dr. Gary Nolan when he says about Kit Green’s patients that, “I have seen these people were injured. I have seen the physiological consequences of the harm they’ve endured.” And that he thinks from Kit Green’s cases that they were exposed in an electromagnetic field of some sort that caused consequences in the mind and the body.
Right there in your book this connects what we’ll call the U.K. highly secret report on UAPS to what happened to John Burroughs.
Annie: Yes, exactly. And I mean, again, we’re talking about science fact, not science fiction, although it sounds like science fiction. Now, you know, what’s interesting is if you want to take the skeptical approach with the terahertz and the UAPs and the tissue injury, you could take the approach that these are advanced technology weapons. And, of course, that is in part Green’s summation because he has spent as you mentioned in your intro, decades serving on Defense Department committees like the Tiger Committee at DIA that studies advanced technology. So, there’s always an out with Defense Department scientists, I learned. Meaning, there’s the hypothesis, “What is it?”
But then there’s the statement, “It is likely advanced technology.” But, of course, the subtext of all of this that one is writing about when one is writing about phenomena is the bigger question and the same question that Andrija Puharich so interestingly asked way back in the 1950s: “Is this from within, or is it from without?”
And that is, again, why the subject is so polemic. I can tell you, as a national security reporter who lives on the outside of the world in which many of your listeners inhabit who follow a lot of these stories, that is where the polemics come from because as soon as you bring up the “without,” you’re talking about the supernatural, and then people scatter. But what I found fascinating was Green, Puthoff, and others were very careful to call the anomalous mental phenomena the supernature, or the supernormal, as opposed to paranormal because it allows a discussion based on the idea of what they call the Mozart analogy.
And that would be that Annie can’t sing in the shower, but you listen to the music that Mozart composed, and you realize that some people are supernormal. Where it gets complex with John is in this idea that I write about in this chapter of Phenomena that Nolan and Green explained to me, which is this idea of the antenna. And I think maybe John could talk to us more about that since he’s, you know, got the firsthand experience.
John: Why don’t you define what the antenna is to the listeners before I go further?
Annie: Well, they’re—Green, and Nolan, and others at work on this project — while they look for, they’re mapping, searching for genomics of supernormality. What they are finding is that in the FMRI — those are the very high-resolution brain scans that are now available through advanced technology — they’re seeing patterns in the brain scans of individuals who have purported remote viewing, as Green says, and they’re seeing it as kind of a cluster, as a marker, if you will.
And they call it the “antenna.” That suggests that it’s some kind of poetic beacon, if you will. In other words, certain—and then again, you can close this loop by saying, “Well, think of the Mozart analogy,” you know? Annie can’t sing in the shower, so she doesn’t have the antenna. Mozart had the antenna. But then, you know, you can kind of go off the reservation and say, “Well, what’s the antenna connecting to?” And that’s where any scientist who’s working in this world who has a big reputation and a lot of experience will be very careful with how they finish those sentences.
John: Right. And what intrigued me the most was they even brought it up to you. You know, they actually felt comfortable enough not — nothing against you — just the fact that they would start introducing this. Because there’s no doubt they want the program to be put out there for the public to start to digest, would you agree?
Annie: Yes, I mean, and again, it goes back to, you know, I had some information that I had, and I asked Green about it, and over time he — we developed a rapport in our ongoing hours and hours of interviews that apparently made him comfortable enough to discuss this program further with me. And I felt quite privileged to have this story because I was aware that no one else had been told at that length. And I felt that I really wanted to make sure that I wrote it into the narrative in a way that serves the narrative and kind of honors the intention with which the parties told me.
John Burroughs Is 1 of 70 “Antenna”
Cases Studied by CIA’s Kit Green, M. D.
Because again, it’s a very sensitive subject. And so when you shared with me that you were one of the 70 cases, you know, my jaw kind of dropped.
John: Right. And the reason, partly, why I can be more open about this is two reasons. One is the fact that Puthoff and Green divulged it. The other thing is that there was another individual that was with me that got close to it. And Green and Puthoff reached out to both of us.
And what Linda’s been wanting me to explain is we did an appearance at Steven Bassett’s conference, it was the 2013 Citizen Hearing (National Press Club, Washington, D. C., and both Linda and John presented UAP/UFO-related case evidence), and they set it up exactly like if it would have been a real hearing in front of Congress. And they had ex-members of Congress there. And we did our brief, and we went through it. The actual reaction from the people sitting on the panel, including one that was involved with MKULTRA, if you can believe it or not — which at the time, I didn’t know, but he had been a U. S. Senator (Mike Gravelle-Alaska), and he started grilling us.
He started asking us questions like we knew more. And we sort of did, but we sort of didn’t at the time. But then after we did this appearance, then Dr. Green contacted the attorney who was there with us, Pat Frascogna out of Mississippi, and offered his assistance.
And what Linda was implying is that Linda got to meet with Dr. Green and Hal Puthoff. Also, I’ve been down at Hal Puthoff’s lab. He took me down there, and he gave me a briefing on certain things. But basically, they stepped in, and they kept me alive based on their knowledge of what affected me and how it affected me. And then they also did some tests. I mean, it was done when I had the heart surgery and stuff, but the bottom line is — it just caught me completely off-guard that they were willing to open up to this because, like you said a little bit earlier in the interview, you’re surprised more people haven’t caught onto this and started asking more questions.
Annie: You know, the whole subject makes people uncomfortable. I mean, let me rephrase that. Like, if you’re in this world, you’re totally comfortable with (phenomena subjects). I’ve spent hours with Uri Geller at his home in London. I spent days with him at his home in Israel with his wife and his whole group of people, you know, and we wound up at Netanyahu’s house. There are people who are super comfortable talking about the world in which psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, UAPs, is a common theme and a puzzle to explore.
But there’s another world that exists parallel to that, a world in which I spend much more of my time, which has, you know, sort of gets hives when any of these subjects are brought up, just speaking candidly. And I have written enough books and feel comfortable enough in my reporting that I’m not — frankly speaking, I’m not really — it doesn’t really matter to me what others think of that. But I am perfectly openminded to entertaining these ideas because I find that a closed mind is a dangerous mind. However, most people do not agree with that. I write about the sheep and the goats in my book as that analogy.
And the goats get very, very intimidating. As I report in the book, any of the skeptics I interviewed tore into me time and again, reiterating that same concept by that British statistician that I talked about earlier, that somehow anyone that’s going to contemplate these subjects is intellectually inferior. What’s remarkable about guys like Green, Puthoff, Nolan, Vallee — they are so far advanced in their thinking, and they have decades of experience as physicists, as scientists, as neurobiologists, as astrophysicists. Those are some of the individuals who have held top secret clearances longer than anyone I know and have interviewed, and I’ve interviewed presidential science advisors and Nobel Laureates. So to me, this is really interesting stuff, and I’m far more interested in it than I am afraid of it.
Lawrence Livermore Scientists Working
with Uri Geller Were Haunted At Home
by Floating Orbs and Even A Black Raven
Linda: Annie, on Page 178 in your chapter, “The Unconscious,” going to what I thought was perhaps the most interesting part about Uri Geller that I had never heard about before, you said: “In the winter of 1975, Uri Geller was in Northern California to do a project at Lawrence Livermore. And Kit Green was serving as a contract monitor for the CIA that was behind this research. And that what happened is that scientists set up an experiment in a laboratory adjacent to Lawrence Livermore in an old wooden WWII barracks on University of California property. Two sets of experiments were to take place. In the first test, high wuality lasers were fired at a target. The question was: Could Uri Geller interfere with that beam? For the second test, scientists placed magnetic computer program cards in a lead container and sealed it. Could Geller effect what was inside?”
I’m wondering if you could now explain to the audience what Geller was able to do with something that you would think was that difficult and complex? And then what were the ESP and PK consequences on scientists working there at Lawrence Livermore that were exposed to Uri Geller and those tests?
Annie: Well, this is an extraordinary program that you’ve brought up, or incident, rather, and it speaks to John Burroughs’s situation because it’s essentially the origin story for Kit Green, for his interest in these anomalous events where people get injured, where you have somehow the mind and the body are affected by an anomalous situation.
So, the way I write about it in the book is that I use what’s called the Thomas Theorem, and that is this quote, this idea that if men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.
And what happened was the Livermore scientists did those series of investigations with Geller about PK. They wanted to see if he would be able to upset the delicate electronic system on say an ICBM nuclear missile. And they did these various experiments with him, and they found that his PK only worked at very close range, not over distances. But far more interesting and important to the story we’re talking about now is what happened when the scientists went home.
So, when you’re a nuclear scientist, you carry what’s called a Q clearance, and you have a minder, a handler, if you will. And when you report in for work at Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Laboratory, you are required to tell your minder if anything strange happened to you while you were gone. Now, this was set up, of course, for like sort of Soviet intervention. But what remarkable situation unfolded in this during these several days’ worth of experience with Geller was that three or four or five of the scientists on some nights would come in and report to work, and they would say to their handler, they would relay really weird stories of things that happened in their own homes at night. This included sort of orbs floating around the ceiling down the hallways.
One of the nuclear scientists reported seeing a big, black raven at the end of his bedpost. OK, it’s the 1970s, you say, maybe there were drugs involved. But the man also said his wife saw it. And so the handler that was the AEC liaison got really concerned and called up the CIA.
Then who was sent out to investigate what was going on but Kit Green. And what he told me that he found was that these scientists with the Q clearances were not crazy. They were not on drugs. You can’t take drugs when you have a Q clearance. The scientists were experiencing something that he could not explain. And so he reported back to CIA security that this was just an anomalous situation. But it planted a seed inside of him, he said, and over the decades he began to collect similar stories. Stories where men’s minds were affected by these individuals who have anomalous mental phenomena, sort of powers.
And also Green began to collect stories about people who in their physiology, like John Burroughs, was affected by experiences with inexplicable, unidentified aerial phenomena — UAPs.
Linda: So, Annie, when you go to the heart of the husband and wife who both saw what they called “a discarnate arm rotating like a hologram in the air” free-floating above the bed at night, an arm wrapped in some kind of grey cloth. Instead of a hand, the arm had a hooko. And that scientist talked about the horror of seeing this hook floating over the foot of his bed and how it rotated like a spit.
And that you, in talking with Kit Green, Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ, had made some comments that maybe this was in fact an alien intelligence trying to say to the scientists in the Livermore program, ‘We want you to stop experimentation with atomic bombs.”
Annie: Well, I don’t know that Green and Puthoff ever told me that. But that was the summation by Green and Puthoff. In other words, they never heard that. But that was their summation of what the scientists said. And two of those scientists quit the program. Now, for the reporter’s due diligence, keep in mind the way I report the story is I tell you very clearly this is coming from Green, coming from Puthoff.
Uri Geller incidentally did not know about the hallucinations by the scientists, but he put me in touch with one of the scientists who did not want to comment. And I was unable to reach any of the other scientists who quit the program.
So, you know, you do the best you can as a reporter, and a you make clear to your reader who says what and why. But any way you look at this incident, you know, Hal Puthoff was made aware of it, Green was made aware of it, CIA security was made aware of it. It’s an inexplicable anomalous event. And again, what I found most interesting — you could also say, it’s simply an example of the Thomas Theorem, that if men define situations, there are real consequences. So who knows whether there are psychological underpinnings underneath it.
But what I found fascinating from a reporter’s point of view is that this stayed with Green. It dogged him. He wanted an explanation. And 50 years later, he’s working to find that explanation at the Nolan Laboratory with Garry Nolan. That’s dedication.
Linda: Yes, thank you. Let’s pick up on the other side of this break, going further and deeper with Annie Jacobsen into her remarkable book, Phenomena.
• 03/13/2015 — Breaking News — This Is Why John Burroughs’s Medical Records from RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge 1979-1982 Are “Classified,” According to Christopher C. Green M.D., Ph.D., FAAFS, Wayne State School of Medicine
For further information about ESP and PK phenomena, please see reports in the Earthfiles Archive organized in chronological order from 1999 to 2016 ongoing of which a few are listed here.
- 01/29/2016 —Pt. 2 Why Wasn’t Laurance Rockefeller Pressure On Hillary and Bill Clinton to Open Up Secret UFO Files Successful?
- 01/29/2016 —Pt. 1 Hillary Clinton and John Podesta — Tweets About Aliens and 2016 New Hampshire Campaign Interview
- 12/29/2007 —Part 12: In League With A UFO
- 10/25/2003 —Science Data Reinforces Invisible “Dark” Matter and Energy Make Up 96% of Our Universe
- 06/22/2000 —The UFO/FBI Connection by U. S. Navy Physicist, Bruce S. Maccabee – Part 5
MKULTRA, CIA Library: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/search/site/mk%2520ultra
Hal Puthoff, Ph.D.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingo_Swann
Christopher “Kit” Green, M. D.:
Phenomena Research at SRI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology_research_at_SRI
Ingo Swann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingo_Swann
Uri Geller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Geller
Geller Website: http://www.urigeller.com
Summary of SRI Experiments with Uri Geller: http://www.urigeller.com/documentaries/summary-of-the-sri-experiments/
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